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For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - AceRimmer   (Nov 19, 2010, 11:17 am)
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - FuzzyLogic   (Nov 19, 2010, 8:48 am)
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - Blueraider0   (Nov 19, 2010, 1:49 am)
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you sa

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - FuzzyLogic   (Nov 15, 2010, 11:20 am)
I see the logic, it just seems you should be able to determine if a unit's order is valid w/o regard for other units' positions. i.e. you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 19, 01:49 am
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you sa
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
Reply notification - AceRimmer   (Nov 15, 2010, 10:56 am)
"I would insist that the valid set of moves for a unit are not dependent on the lack or presence of other units. I think if you order A Lon-Pic, even if there is no fleet in ENG, it is as valid a mov

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 11:20 am
I see the logic, it just seems you should be able to determine if a unit's order is valid w/o regard for other units' positions. i.e. you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 19, 01:49 am
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you sa
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - FuzzyLogic   (Nov 15, 2010, 9:49 am)

I would argue that, since there is not an unbroken chain of fleets running from Belgium to NAf, the army's order is invalid and should be treated as A Bel Holds.



I would insist that

[Reply]

Reply notification (Community) AceRimmer Nov 15, 10:56 am
"I would insist that the valid set of moves for a unit are not dependent on the lack or presence of other units. I think if you order A Lon-Pic, even if there is no fleet in ENG, it is as valid a mov
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 11:20 am
I see the logic, it just seems you should be able to determine if a unit's order is valid w/o regard for other units' positions. i.e. you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 19, 01:49 am
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you sa
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - Blueraider0   (Nov 13, 2010, 12:12 am)
Aahhhh, dang it I apparently didn't actually post my response. Crud, and it was so brilliant and funny and intellectually stunning! Well, here's take 2. And if it sucks, just know there is a better

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - AceRimmer   (Nov 12, 2010, 10:23 am)
Generally, I agree with poobaloo's interpretations.

Maslow and I did go back to the rulebook. Maslow pointed out the rule stating "An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 13, 12:12 am
Aahhhh, dang it I apparently didn't actually post my response. Crud, and it was so brilliant and funny and intellectually stunning! Well, here's take 2. And if it sucks, just know there is a better
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 09:49 am

I would argue that, since there is not an unbroken chain of fleets running from Belgium to NAf, the army's order is invalid and should be treated as A Bel Holds.



I would insist that
Reply notification (Community) AceRimmer Nov 15, 10:56 am
"I would insist that the valid set of moves for a unit are not dependent on the lack or presence of other units. I think if you order A Lon-Pic, even if there is no fleet in ENG, it is as valid a mov
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 11:20 am
I see the logic, it just seems you should be able to determine if a unit's order is valid w/o regard for other units' positions. i.e. you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 19, 01:49 am
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you sa
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - AceRimmer   (Nov 12, 2010, 10:14 am)
Maslow, I'd say that your question is rendered moot by the section of the rules entitled:

"Support" Cannot Be Convoyed.

At least that puzzle is easily solved Smile

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - Blueraider0   (Nov 12, 2010, 2:07 am)
I won't spoil any of the opinions Adam and I have in store, but I was reviewing the rules per Michael's reference, and found this gem:

"The province to which a unit is providing support must be one

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:14 am
Maslow, I'd say that your question is rendered moot by the section of the rules entitled:

"Support" Cannot Be Convoyed.

At least that puzzle is easily solved Smile
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - garry.bledsoe   (Nov 11, 2010, 3:29 pm)
So I have a bit of a different take. I think that the rules are only sort of black and white because they still require a GM to make a decision - does a typo/mistake by the player allow a unit to hold

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 12, 02:07 am
I won't spoil any of the opinions Adam and I have in store, but I was reviewing the rules per Michael's reference, and found this gem:

"The province to which a unit is providing support must be one
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:14 am
Maslow, I'd say that your question is rendered moot by the section of the rules entitled:

"Support" Cannot Be Convoyed.

At least that puzzle is easily solved Smile
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - s2000chops   (Nov 11, 2010, 11:25 am)
I think, for the same reason, that order #2 (with A Bel - Par) should also be valid. Par is not a valid destination from Belgium, so the move is invalid and the unit holds.

The NAF case is the tric

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) garry.bledsoe Nov 11, 03:29 pm
So I have a bit of a different take. I think that the rules are only sort of black and white because they still require a GM to make a decision - does a typo/mistake by the player allow a unit to hold
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 12, 02:07 am
I won't spoil any of the opinions Adam and I have in store, but I was reviewing the rules per Michael's reference, and found this gem:

"The province to which a unit is providing support must be one
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:14 am
Maslow, I'd say that your question is rendered moot by the section of the rules entitled:

"Support" Cannot Be Convoyed.

At least that puzzle is easily solved Smile
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - FuzzyLogic   (Nov 10, 2010, 9:54 pm)
Upon further review, I believe even #5 is clear:

An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal province.



and...

[quote]A Fleet can be ordered to move to an

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) s2000chops Nov 11, 11:25 am
I think, for the same reason, that order #2 (with A Bel - Par) should also be valid. Par is not a valid destination from Belgium, so the move is invalid and the unit holds.

The NAF case is the tric
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) garry.bledsoe Nov 11, 03:29 pm
So I have a bit of a different take. I think that the rules are only sort of black and white because they still require a GM to make a decision - does a typo/mistake by the player allow a unit to hold
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 12, 02:07 am
I won't spoil any of the opinions Adam and I have in store, but I was reviewing the rules per Michael's reference, and found this gem:

"The province to which a unit is providing support must be one
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:14 am
Maslow, I'd say that your question is rendered moot by the section of the rules entitled:

"Support" Cannot Be Convoyed.

At least that puzzle is easily solved Smile
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - FuzzyLogic   (Nov 10, 2010, 9:39 pm)
The pertinent rules are:
[quote](1) A unit not ordered to move can be supported by a support order that only mentions its province. A unit that is ordered to hold, convoy, support, or not ordered at

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 10, 09:54 pm
Upon further review, I believe even #5 is clear:

An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal province.



and...

[quote]A Fleet can be ordered to move to an
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) s2000chops Nov 11, 11:25 am
I think, for the same reason, that order #2 (with A Bel - Par) should also be valid. Par is not a valid destination from Belgium, so the move is invalid and the unit holds.

The NAF case is the tric
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) garry.bledsoe Nov 11, 03:29 pm
So I have a bit of a different take. I think that the rules are only sort of black and white because they still require a GM to make a decision - does a typo/mistake by the player allow a unit to hold
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 12, 02:07 am
I won't spoil any of the opinions Adam and I have in store, but I was reviewing the rules per Michael's reference, and found this gem:

"The province to which a unit is providing support must be one
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:14 am
Maslow, I'd say that your question is rendered moot by the section of the rules entitled:

"Support" Cannot Be Convoyed.

At least that puzzle is easily solved Smile
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:23 am
Generally, I agree with poobaloo's interpretations.

Maslow and I did go back to the rulebook. Maslow pointed out the rule stating "An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 13, 12:12 am
Aahhhh, dang it I apparently didn't actually post my response. Crud, and it was so brilliant and funny and intellectually stunning! Well, here's take 2. And if it sucks, just know there is a better
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 09:49 am

I would argue that, since there is not an unbroken chain of fleets running from Belgium to NAf, the army's order is invalid and should be treated as A Bel Holds.



I would insist that
Reply notification (Community) AceRimmer Nov 15, 10:56 am
"I would insist that the valid set of moves for a unit are not dependent on the lack or presence of other units. I think if you order A Lon-Pic, even if there is no fleet in ENG, it is as valid a mov
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 11:20 am
I see the logic, it just seems you should be able to determine if a unit's order is valid w/o regard for other units' positions. i.e. you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 19, 01:49 am
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you sa
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - AceRimmer   (Nov 10, 2010, 10:06 am)
Maslow and I have been having a conversation about supports offered to invalidly ordered units. I am curious what other GMs think. Since we're soliciting opinions, we will wait a little while before

[Reply]

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 10, 09:39 pm
The pertinent rules are:
[quote](1) A unit not ordered to move can be supported by a support order that only mentions its province. A unit that is ordered to hold, convoy, support, or not ordered at
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 10, 09:54 pm
Upon further review, I believe even #5 is clear:

An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal province.



and...

[quote]A Fleet can be ordered to move to an
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) s2000chops Nov 11, 11:25 am
I think, for the same reason, that order #2 (with A Bel - Par) should also be valid. Par is not a valid destination from Belgium, so the move is invalid and the unit holds.

The NAF case is the tric
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) garry.bledsoe Nov 11, 03:29 pm
So I have a bit of a different take. I think that the rules are only sort of black and white because they still require a GM to make a decision - does a typo/mistake by the player allow a unit to hold
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 12, 02:07 am
I won't spoil any of the opinions Adam and I have in store, but I was reviewing the rules per Michael's reference, and found this gem:

"The province to which a unit is providing support must be one
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:14 am
Maslow, I'd say that your question is rendered moot by the section of the rules entitled:

"Support" Cannot Be Convoyed.

At least that puzzle is easily solved Smile
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 12, 10:23 am
Generally, I agree with poobaloo's interpretations.

Maslow and I did go back to the rulebook. Maslow pointed out the rule stating "An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 13, 12:12 am
Aahhhh, dang it I apparently didn't actually post my response. Crud, and it was so brilliant and funny and intellectually stunning! Well, here's take 2. And if it sucks, just know there is a better
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 09:49 am

I would argue that, since there is not an unbroken chain of fleets running from Belgium to NAf, the army's order is invalid and should be treated as A Bel Holds.



I would insist that
Reply notification (Community) AceRimmer Nov 15, 10:56 am
"I would insist that the valid set of moves for a unit are not dependent on the lack or presence of other units. I think if you order A Lon-Pic, even if there is no fleet in ENG, it is as valid a mov
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 15, 11:20 am
I see the logic, it just seems you should be able to determine if a unit's order is valid w/o regard for other units' positions. i.e. you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) Blueraider0 Nov 19, 01:49 am
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you sa
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am
We're in agreement here, no?  I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.  Smile


Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.




Lon-Bel is valid even if yo
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.

Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that
For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm


So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:

When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?



Ok, so what
Dip in classroom - dknemeyer   (Oct 15, 2010, 9:43 am)
In real life I host my company's podcast. This week for our theme "Games and Learning" I had on a high school teacher who has a two week block each year dedicated to playing Diplomacy. Thought some of

[Reply]

Diplomacy World #111 Released! - diplomacyworld   (Oct 04, 2010, 4:17 pm)
Here is my initial Diplomacy World announcement:

Diplomacy World #111, the Fall 2010 Issue, is now available! Inside you'll find:

* Conrad Woodring on one of the most difficult journeys ever to

[Reply]

Eternal Sunshine #45 Released - diplomacyworld   (Sep 29, 2010, 11:02 am)
The new October 2010 issue of Eternal Sunshine, #45, is now available in both pdf and html formats. You can find it at:

http://www.whiningkentpigs.com/DW/

Included in this issue is the usual

[Reply]

Next GM? - Sean2010   (Sep 24, 2010, 3:39 pm)
Michael,

I'm interested in taking a shot at GMing standard since this will be my first attempt at Gming.

[Reply]

Next GM? - FuzzyLogic   (Sep 23, 2010, 12:57 pm)
Woohoo!
Glad to have ya. Who's after Warren?

Any takers??
-mike

[Reply]

Next GM? (Community) Sean2010 Sep 24, 03:39 pm
Michael,

I'm interested in taking a shot at GMing standard since this will be my first attempt at Gming.
Next GM? - alwayshunted   (Sep 21, 2010, 6:09 pm)
Put me on the list for another if you like Mike.

[Reply]

Next GM? (Community) FuzzyLogic Sep 23, 12:57 pm
Woohoo!
Glad to have ya. Who's after Warren?

Any takers??
-mike
Next GM? (Community) Sean2010 Sep 24, 03:39 pm
Michael,

I'm interested in taking a shot at GMing standard since this will be my first attempt at Gming.
Will someone run a priivate game? - dknemeyer   (Sep 20, 2010, 12:22 pm)
While I didn't want to take on another full game I would actually be happy to adjudicate in Garry's absence so this game can continued uninterrupted, if it is OK with Garry...

[Reply]

Will someone run a priivate game? - garry.bledsoe   (Sep 20, 2010, 10:18 am)
Hey...my time away will be from the 13th of Oct to approx. the 29th of Oct. So there would be nothing completed during that time. Other than that I am ready to run it.

g

[Reply]

Will someone run a priivate game? (Community) dknemeyer Sep 20, 12:22 pm
While I didn't want to take on another full game I would actually be happy to adjudicate in Garry's absence so this game can continued uninterrupted, if it is OK with Garry...
Next GM? - FuzzyLogic   (Sep 18, 2010, 11:37 am)
It is indeed! Either a Stonehenge or Dark Ages would probly fill fast.

We still need Standard game GMs! Our queue is down to 0 ready in the wings...
-mike

[Reply]

Next GM? (Community) alwayshunted Sep 21, 06:09 pm
Put me on the list for another if you like Mike.
Next GM? (Community) FuzzyLogic Sep 23, 12:57 pm
Woohoo!
Glad to have ya. Who's after Warren?

Any takers??
-mike
Next GM? (Community) Sean2010 Sep 24, 03:39 pm
Michael,

I'm interested in taking a shot at GMing standard since this will be my first attempt at Gming.
Will someone run a priivate game? - MrSmiley   (Sep 17, 2010, 10:58 am)
Garry,

Yes! They would be signing up at DC! They have been looking over the site for the last couple weeks.

So that I know what to tell the other players, could we get someone to fill in while

[Reply]

Will someone run a priivate game? (Community) garry.bledsoe Sep 20, 10:18 am
Hey...my time away will be from the 13th of Oct to approx. the 29th of Oct. So there would be nothing completed during that time. Other than that I am ready to run it.

g
Will someone run a priivate game? (Community) dknemeyer Sep 20, 12:22 pm
While I didn't want to take on another full game I would actually be happy to adjudicate in Garry's absence so this game can continued uninterrupted, if it is OK with Garry...

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