Welcome Guest!  [Log In]  [Sign Up]

Diplomaticcorp Discussion Forum:  Community

(community(at)diplomaticcorp(dot)com)


Post:< 18464 >
Subject:< For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question >
Topic:Community >
Category:General >
Author:AceRimmer
Posted:Nov 12, 2010 at 10:23 am
Viewed:1356 times

  [New Post]  [Reply]  [Quote]

Generally, I agree with poobaloo's interpretations.

Maslow and I did go back to the rulebook. Maslow pointed out the rule stating "An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal province" and also "An Army can move across water provinces from one coastal province to another via one or more Fleets." Therefore, by definition, a unit can not be ordered to move from Belgium to Paris (*if* one assumes that the above rules are 100% complete... which is a matter of interpretation).

I countered with the rules stating when a support can be given. The emphasis is on whether a unit is ordered to move or not. And this left me with the same question that Garry asked: Can a unit ordered to move *invalidly* receive support to hold? Is it trying to move? Or does its invalidity make it a holding unit? In fact, I referred to Garry's House Rules in the context of the discussion Smile

In Maslow's interpretation, since invalid orders are, by definition, not allowed, then any invalidly ordered unit reverts to: "Not giving a unit an order is interpreted as ordering it to hold."

This is, by the way, how I interpret invalid orders. Still, what has been missing is an overt statement in the rules that an invalid movement order becomes an order to hold.

Mike Sims cited the following rule: "Any vague or invalid orders are ignored." Unfortunately... that rule appears in a section entitled "Writing Build and Disbandments". It clearly refers specifically to adjustments. There is not a complementary rule for movement orders.

In short... I see no clear correct answer.

Myself, I think that the general practice of "Invalid orders become orders to hold" takes precedence, and I would adjudicate as though all such units were ordered from the outset to hold.

Note: this is *not* how RP works. Or the judges. They will treat an invalid movement order as an attempt to move.

Like others, I agree that the really tricky scenario was A Bel-NAf. The rules say:

"If Fleets occupy adjacent water provinces, an Army can be convoyed through all these water provinces on one turn, landing in a coastal province adjacent to the final Fleet in the chain."

I would argue that, since there is not an unbroken chain of fleets running from Belgium to NAf, the army's order is invalid and should be treated as A Bel Holds.

A final thought: I have never encountered any of these scenarios in a real game. (And I hope that I never do).

Adam

This message is in reply to post 18444:

The pertinent rules are:

(1) A unit not ordered to move can be supported by a support order that only mentions its province. A unit that is ordered to hold, convoy, support, or not ordered at all can receive support in holding its position. For example, if the order is written “F Den S F Bal,” then the Fleet in Denmark will support the Fleet in the Baltic Sea as long as the Fleet in the Baltic is holding, convoying, or supporting. If the Fleet in the Baltic attempts to move, then the support from Denmark is invalid.


And...

(2) A unit ordered to move can only be supported by a support order that matches the move the unit is trying to make. For example, an Army in Bohemia is ordered to support an Army in Munich in its move to Silesia (A Boh S A Mun–Sil). However, the Army in Munich is ordered to move to Tyrolia instead (A Mun–Tyr). The support order fails because the move it’s supporting isn’t the move that was ordered. This support order doesn’t become a support order to hold.



Case 1:
Germany: A Bel-Lon.
Support of Bel Holding FAILS.

Clearly, A Bel ordered to London, and the support order does not meet the requirements of (2) above. The support order fails. Ruh simply is not adjacent to Lon, and thus it couldn't even support the Bel moving to Lon if it wanted to.

Case 2:
Germany: A Bel-Par.
Support of Bel Holding FAILS.

Same as case 1. Ruh could have supported Bel-Par, but it didn't do that.

Case 3:
A Bel-Naf
Support of Bel Holding FAILS.

Still nothing different here. Bel ordered to move. The support didn't match. CLEARLY fails per the rulebook (2) above.

Case 4:
A Bel-Neptune.

A Bel-Neptune is invalid.

Per the manual again,

Any vague or invalid orders are ignored.



This order is both not clear AND invalid, and thus it is ignored. The order is completely ignored. Later in the manual, we have:

Not giving a unit an order is interpreted as ordering it to hold.



Because Bel was not given an order (the only order given was ignored, thus it has no order) is ordered to hold. Since Bel Holds, Ruh S Bel is VALID.

Case 5:
A Bel-Bel

Not EXPLICITLY covered in the manual, but the manual does go to the extent to define that a MOVE order involves moving from one province to another, and it gives the example that an army in Paris could order to move to Pic, Bre, Bur, or Gas (not "move" to it's own space Paris).

Thus this order is simply invalid and the unit Holds.

Support for Bel Holds is VALID.

Case 6:
Germany: A Bel - no order received

Support for Bel Holds is DEFINITELY VALID.

Manual is clear that an unordered unit is by default ORDERED to HOLD. So supporting an unordered unit in place is perfectly valid.

That's my take! It is my opinions, but I don't see much room for debate on these they're all pretty clearly explained by the manual, aside from #5 which is clear only by similar example in the manual, not explicit statement.

There are 16 Messages in this Thread:


For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 10, 10:06 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 10, 09:39 pm

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 10, 09:54 pm

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (s2000chops) Nov 11, 11:25 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (garry.bledsoe) Nov 11, 03:29 pm

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Blueraider0) Nov 12, 02:07 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 12, 10:14 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 12, 10:23 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Blueraider0) Nov 13, 12:12 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 15, 09:49 am

Reply notification (AceRimmer) Nov 15, 10:56 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 15, 11:20 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Blueraider0) Nov 19, 01:49 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 19, 08:48 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 19, 11:17 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 19, 12:05 pm

There are 181 Threads in Community:


Back after a while and hoping to play. (diplocowboy) [2 Replies]

Back after a while and hoping to play. (diplocowboy)

DC Games (DealingFungus66)

Cousins game (Sean2010) [3 Replies]

Cousins game (Sean2010)

Looking for one more player (Slangers)

Just Joined (Spindoctor6)

is DC dead ? (ruler462)

Brother's War (Conquest) (Sean2010)

Getting Started (DealingFungus66)

Sign Ups not working (umbletheheep)

2021 Winter Blitz? (umbletheheep)

PERFIDIOUS#2 (THC)

A Dip Read (THC)

Time for Games? (garry.bledsoe)

Spaces for Standard players (Slangers)

Offering a new way to play Diplomacy (Slangers)

New Member (Skeleton) [2 Replies]

First Intimate Game Ends! (Slangers)

Weekly Diplomacy Newsletter (umbletheheep)


1 - 20 of 181 shown [More]

Diplomacy games may contain lying, stabbing, or deliberately deceiving communications that may not be suitable for and may pose a hazard to young children, gullible adults, and small farm animals.

Powered by Fuzzy Logic · You are visitor number 55608 · Page loaded in 0.6295 seconds by DESMOND